Willkommen zu einer weiteren Folge Haecksenwerk!
Haecksenwerk ist das Podcastkollektiv der Haecksen. Es geht um die ganze Bandbreite von Technik, Kultur und Feminismus. In unserem Podcast möchten wir Einblicke in Themen geben, die uns bewegen. Diese Folge ist ein Interview, das auf Englisch geführt wurde.
The first episode of our series about feminist hacker groups around the world leads us to Kenya. Piko talks with Laura Tich about Shehacks Kenya, an initiative to teach female students in Kenya about cyber security and to inspire them to make computer science and information security their job. Turns out that the problems that feminism addresses are very similar to those in Germany…
The episode was recorded in August 2022. Why it took us so long to publish the episode will be explained around minute 39. We noticed only afterwards that the audio deteriorated during the episode. We will work on improving that in the coming episodes!
- SheHacks KE
- Twitter: @shehacks_ke
- Linkedin: SheHacks KE
- YouTube: SheHacks KE
- Laura Tich auf Twitter: @lauratich_
- haecksenwerk abonnieren: https://www.haecksen.org/feed/mp3/
- Social Media: https://twitter.com/HaecksenC und https://chaos.social/@haecksen
feminist activism, international, hacktivism, it security, kenya, nigeria, zimbabwe, teaching, organizing
Sprechende: Piko & Laura Tich
Produktion: Piko, balub
Piko: Hello and welcome again to a new episode of Haecksenwerk. Today we’re talking in English because I’m having a very, very interesting guest. It’s Laura Tich. She’s a cybersecurity expert and digital privacy advocate from Kenya, and she’s founder of SheHacks_Kenya. She’s the first person we’re interviewing in a series in which we are looking at feminist hacker groups around the world, and I’m super happy to have you here, Laura, as the first
person we’re talking to. So welcome.
Laura: Thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here.
Piko: So my first question for you is, who are you, what are you doing, and what is your group doing?
Laura: Thank you. So my name, as you say, is Laura, and I work in cybersecurity. I am from Kenya, I live in Kenya, and I’m based in Kenya. And I am also the founder of SheHacks_Kenya alongside two other amazing women. We founded SheHacks_Kenya in 2016, and what we do is we offer training and facilitate bootcamps to students and especially women across the country around cybersecurity, because there’s not a lot of education around cybersecurity in educational institutions in Kenya. So that’s where we step in. Our main goal is, first of all, to bridge the skills gap in the industry in Kenya, and also to bridge the gender gap. Besides that, as you mentioned, I’m also a digital privacy advocate, I work with social justice organizations in Kenya and across the globe to offer digital security solutions to them in terms of technical solutions, and also training and awareness.
Piko: And those clients you have there are kind of special, you told me earlier. What’s the main focus you have?
Laura: Our clients are particularly social justice organizations. So people who deal or organizations that deal with social justice staff, we have community-based organizations, which are the smaller organizations within small communities in Kenya, but we also have human rights defenders. Currently, our clients, we have some that are based in North America, some that are based in Europe, and others that are based in Africa. So our reach is far and wide, we try to reach as many organizations as possible. And what we try to do is for especially developing countries, there’s a lot of digital threats that this organization face, especially those that deal with activism. So we are just trying to offer them solutions, teach them how to stay safe online, how to circumvent censorship, and surveillance. So we offer our solutions in so many different ways, depending on the needs of those organizations.
Piko: And SheHacks_Kenya, that group is the group why we kind of contacted you or how we found you. And could you tell us a little bit about how this group came to be?
Laura: Yeah, so I first joined the industry in 2016, I was a third year student at the university, pursuing a bachelor’s in computer science, applied computer science. And when I joined the industry, I noticed that there was very little, almost a lack of women representation in the industry, in terms of job opportunities, but also in terms of presenting at conferences, speaking in public forums. So there was a lot of under-representation of women. And we decided to start a WhatsApp group that was specifically for women interested in cybersecurity That way they could learn together, they could, you know, just build in a community where
they could feel safe and not scared to ask questions and interact with other women like us. And we didn’t know that it was going to develop into what it is today, because at first it was just a WhatsApp group where we would communicate, but eventually we started hosting events in the form of boot camps. So what happened is we decided one time in 2018 to host a boot camp, and we had about 70 women who signed up for the boot camp, it was a full day boot camp on a Saturday. But what ended up happening was 180 people showed up. And please know that this is a full day boot camp, we are providing food, we are dealing with the logistics for the venue.
But thankfully, the organization that was hosting us, they were so kind.
And they stepped in and they really made sure that everyone was catered for all the 180 people. Yeah, that’s when we noticed that there was, there was interest in cybersecurity, people are yearning to learn. And so we started doing the physical boot camps more often.
Piko: And how often are you doing them right now? Is it like every week?
Laura: Yeah, so before the pandemic, before the first lockdown, we used to do a physical boot camp, we used to try and do them monthly. But it wasn’t possible because of logistics, because we are a nonprofit organization, we don’t charge for anything.
But then COVID came and we decided to take advantage of it. So we started hosting online sessions. So currently, we have two sessions per week, on Tuesdays for students and on Thursdays for the general community. However, we’ve also been trying to get back into more physical events, we had one two weeks ago, and this time around, because of logistics, again, we’re trying to get more universities involved so that they can host us without us having to pay for the venue. And they also, you know, they benefit from it because their students get to come and learn with us. So we are getting back slowly into physical boot camps as well.
Piko: And is that just university in Kenya, or are you also in that part more around the globe?
Laura: Yes, so we did start in 2020. We launched Shehacks Zimbabwe, which is a sister chapter of SheHacks Kenya. So it’s done independently, but we helped to set it up. Some women from Zimbabwe reached out to us and they were like, we also need this community in Zimbabwe. So we did help to set it up for them. And they’ve also been doing amazing, they’ve also been learning with each other. And we hope to see them grow more and more. And eventually, we want to reach out to more countries, especially those that have no education around cybersecurity. I know there are some organizations similar to ours in Nigeria. So we try as much as possible and collaborate with them, because we are all doing the same things. We all have the same objectives. There’s Shisekyo in Nigeria, there is CyberSafe Girls in Nigeria as well. And then I also have a friend in The Gambia, her name is Juma, she runs another one called Hackathon Girls, but they deal mostly with coding, but we still try and collaborate with them.
Piko: Wow, and you have grown so much in those years. With how many people did you start out?
Laura: When we first started out, we had a dinner meeting in 2016, November, and only 30 women showed up. So we were around that number in 2016, when we started out, only 30. So far, I do not even have the exact numbers because we are so many, we are thousands in the general community. We have SheHacks clubs in 38 campuses in Kenya. We grew from 32 when we were closing the year last year, but we’ve grown, we’ve added six more this year.
So 38 campuses, colleges, universities, institutions of higher learning, all the students, they come up to us. We launched another one on Friday, actually, and all the students, they just come up to us and they say we need a club in our school. So we help set them up, and then we also provide trainers, and sometimes we go there physically, do an event with them. So all those 38 campuses, student clubs, have so many students in it, depending on the school, there are so many students. So I would say when it comes to the numbers, we have grown from 30 or less to now, I would confidently say over a thousand members.
Piko: Wow! Yeah. So those education events, they’re all also feminist. So they’re aiming mainly at women?
Laura: Yes, we have a bias towards women. Unfortunately, there’s not so many women in the industry, which is one of the goals we are trying, one of the objectives we are trying to meet. We are trying to get more women into the industry because this is a problem that stems from a younger age, where women are discouraged from taking up technical courses. So it’s a narrative we are trying to change. And that’s why we also launched our high school program, where we go and we talk to high school students because that’s where, in Kenya, we have students, when they’re in high school, they’re required to select the courses they would wish to pursue in college. And so you would get that a lot of female students are discouraged. So our goal for the high school program is to go in there, tell them that, hey, we are women in tech, we are women in cyber security, if we can do it, you can do it too. It’s not only for the men. Women in STEM in general, in sciences, in technology, in engineering and maths and medicine, all that, all those courses, we’re trying to get more women into them. So yeah, that’s one of the goals. Unfortunately, as I mentioned, we don’t have many female students, but we do have some really good numbers.
But even for high school, our college events, you would get that there will be a lot more male students than the women. But we can’t turn them away because at the end of the day, we know what it feels like to be left out, to be marginalized. We can’t do that to anyone else. So we welcome them, but they all know that we do have a bias for women.
Piko: Okay, cool. And the problems you’re describing, they’re exactly the same in Germany. Yeah.
Laura: So yes.
Piko: It’s sad.
Piko: So what’s the perfect world you’re fighting for right now? Is it everyone’s super aware of cyber security or it’s exactly the same amount of men and women are studying cyber security?
Laura: My perfect world will be where a world in which opportunities are equal, there’s equal access to opportunities, because when people get these opportunities, then they’re going to make informed decisions. So we’re not forcing women to join the industry, but we’re telling them if you’re interested, if you have ever thought about it, then you can do it. Don’t let anyone discourage you from pursuing it. That way we will find that balance. We will find, we will be able to bridge that gender gap in tech and in cyber security without necessarily making it all about, you know, forcing women to take up technical courses. We just want to give them that option.
Piko: Cool! So another question is like your group is doing mainly things for other people. Is there also kind of the meeting for yourself, like teaching each other and being kind of more like a group?
Laura: Oh yes, yes. Because even our trainers, we do have internal trainers within SheHacks. We all pursue different areas within information security.
You’ll get someone who’s interested in network security, another one in forensics, another one in web app security. You’ll get people who are interested in offensive, others in defensive security. So once we get together, you’re very sure that you’re going to learn from your peers.
So there’s a lot of peer mentorship, peer training, where we do train each other. And even when we host events where we bring in other speakers from other organizations to come and train us, we also gain the knowledge out of it. So in a way, as much as we are providing a platform for students and women to learn, we are also learning ourselves.
Piko: So is that also kind of the main job for most of the trainers or is it kind of a side job?
Laura: It’s purely on volunteer basis. Most of the people within the SheHacks leadership, actually all of them are fully employed, nine to five jobs. So they do SheHacks as a voluntary program. And we are very lucky because most of the organizations my team, my SheHacks leadership team works for, the women within my team, the organizations they work for are very supportive of SheHacks. So we do have, even with the organization I used to work for, it was one of our partners at SheHacks and they’re still very supportive to this date. So we do have people who are interested in seeing us grow.
And in that regard, they do support us.
Piko: Wow, that’s great! So the, so your employers are kind of helping your voluntary work.
Laura: Exactly. Our co-founder, one of the co-founders, Eve, she works for Microsoft Kenya. Microsoft is one of our biggest partners. We have Nancy, our head of programs. She works for a company called Seriano, Seriano is also one of our biggest supporters. I worked for IKRAL Innovation Hub, which is the first and the biggest cybersecurity innovation hub in Eastern Central Africa. It’s also one of the organizations that were supporting us. So yes.
Piko: So you’re also a very good network, like connecting the different companies and uniting them for a good cause.
Piko: So do you meet up somewhere? Do you have kind of a headquarter or is it mainly digitally organized?
Laura: Yes, it’s purely entirely digitally organized. We do our meetings virtually, but sometimes we would meet up for a lunch meeting or whenever we are done with like a major program, we would have dinner together as a group, as the organizers and the leadership team. So we do meet physically once in a while, but all our meetings are purely virtual.
Piko: Do you also kind of have some events just for fun?
Laura: Oh, yes.
Piko: Kind of go kayaking or I don’t know.
Laura: You know, we haven’t had any, I think, since COVID started, but we do support each other in, you know, like we had a baby shower at the end of last year. One of our leaders got a baby and so we had this event for her and it was during the pandemic, but we were still able to meet up following, of course, COVID protocols. And yes, so we do have some events, some fun events, but it’s usually in support of one another.
Piko: What are the next steps for your group? So you are currently kind of growing out of Kenya, but are you also developing the group inside Kenya?
Laura: Eventually we would want, as I mentioned before, we are a not-for-profit organization and sometimes raising funds for the operations to keep going is a bit of a challenge. So eventually we would like to start a program that mostly deals with corporates. That’s where we are able to finance the organization, pay for logistics such as venue, food, whenever we have meetups. So that’s something that we are willing to, we’re really looking forward to start corporate training. But also personally, there’s a project that I’m very passionate about, which is offering coding classes to, or coding resources actually, not necessarily classes, but resources to our students or children from the ages of six to 12 in minority communities in Kenya, in rural areas. I myself, I’m a village girl, I grew up in the rural area and I didn’t know much about computer science. I just pursued it because I chose it as a course because I was very drawn towards mathematics and physics. So we want to start offering that because we want to give, as I said, those kids, we want to give them the opportunities that kids within the capital city and other big towns have access to.
Piko: Would you like to talk a little bit more about kind of your childhood and where you’re from, or is that?
Laura: It’s okay. So I grew up in a tea growing area in the west side of Kenya, the western side of Kenya. It’s very popularly known for amazing tea. It’s called Kericho. It’s very green, very beautiful and very cold. And it was just a typical village lifestyle. There was not a lot, there was a lot to do, but not like the urban setup. Like I live in Nairobi now and it’s a lot of stress. You know, there’s traffic, you have to pay for electricity and water. Back in the village, I feel like most of the stuff was free because you have a farm, you have cattle, you have livestock. So everything you need is very, very reachable and easy to get. And I think there was less stress. It was very, very quiet and peaceful life. And I am very, very lucky. That’s one of the things I’m very appreciative about, that I got to grow up in a very peaceful, very quiet and very beautiful environment. I went to school there in the village, both primary school and high school.
Piko: How big was the school?
Laura: It was quite big, actually. I went to a bunch of schools. They were all quite big because we have a lot of students. And then the town itself, it’s very, very diverse in terms of ethnicity, in terms of race. We have a lot of Kenyans, but we also have a lot of native Indians who moved to Kericho way back before independence, so that is their home. We also have a lot of, in terms of religion, it’s very diverse as well. We have Christianity, we have Islam, we have Hinduism and we have Sikhism. So it’s very diverse and welcoming to people of all ethnicities and races and religious beliefs. And so for me, the one thing that I learned growing up is how to be accepting towards people who are different from you. And that is something that I’ve carried on until this point in my life. And I wish that more people would embrace people like that.
Piko: Wow, that’s super interesting! So when was your first kind of meeting with computers and kind of not just using them, but also kind of understanding them?
Laura: In terms, I’m going to say two different stories. In terms of using computers, I started when I was about eight or nine years old, an organization came to offer computer classes, just the basic how to use a computer classes in my school, but it was during the holidays. So my mom signed up, they were doing it for adults. So she signed up and then she signed me up because she’s very hyperactive and she needed someone there with her, so I went and did the classes with my mom. And that was my very first interactions with computers. We did have cyber cafes. So it was not very inaccessible, you could still get access to computers if you wanted to. But now in terms of learning the inner workings of a computer, I first started learning when I joined college to pursue my degree in applied computer science. For me, it was inspired by my love for math and physics, but it was also inspired by some movies I used to watch where you would see hackers, you know, or you’d see people breaking into computers. And so that was what inspired me to get into cyber security and tech in general.
Piko: Thank you for telling that story, that’s super interesting. So what are your fields, personally, your fields of interest?
Laura: I think I’m very drawn, regardless of what I’m passionate about, I always end up getting drawn towards social justice and digital security or digital privacy advocacy. It’s something that I’m very passionate about, because again, I’m living in a third world country. And I know people living in developing countries as well, where censorship is the order of the day, surveillance is very common. So for me, digital rights and privacy is something that I’m very, very passionate about. I do love forensics as well. It’s something that if I wasn’t doing digital privacy, I would totally venture into forensics. I’ve done courses around it before, but I haven’t done it professionally. Maybe in the next few years, that is something I could venture into.
Piko: Do you have some infrastructure or best practices that you would recommend or kind of errors you made that you would kind of warn other groups who are doing the same thing that you would warn other groups about?
Laura: I feel like some of the failures we’ve encountered in the past have really helped us grow. But the one thing that I would tell organizations, especially those that are starting out, is always be prepared for the best and also the worst. In terms of the best, you would get that some organization would want to come and fund you or support you in a way. Always position yourself in a place where you’re ready to accept that support. Because we found that when the first organization, they actually reached out to us and wanted to support us. We didn’t have anything. We weren’t a registered organization, it was just a community. And so we had to wait a few weeks until we do the whole process of registering the organization. That way we could open a bank account and start receiving funding. So for me, I would tell organizations to stay ready, place yourself in a position where you’re ready for whatever in terms of support and in terms of funding. But also I would say don’t be scared to explore other, if let’s say you had one goal and you’re growing as an organization, don’t be scared to explore other goals. We didn’t picture ourselves going into high schools. We have another program, the Child Online Protection Program, where we train parents and their children. We never pictured ourselves going into that, but we were ready. We were ready to start doing whatever it takes to help the communities around us. And during the pandemic, when the parents came and said they’re scared of getting attacked and their children getting hacked or checking weird stuff online, we made ourselves ready and willing and able to provide awareness training for them. So always place yourself in a position where you’re ready to receive help and you’re also ready to expand and explore other avenues.
Piko: You were talking about how the companies around you are really supporting you. How is it with the government? Is it kind of also supportive of you?
Laura: We have had discussions with some government programs and parastatals that are very interested in what we do. But so far, it’s still something we’re trying to push for. We are trying to get access to the Ministry of ICT. We are trying to get access even to the Ministry of Education and all the other relevant government ministries in order to get support from them, but also in order for them to be part of the cybersecurity discussion in terms of building a platform for students to learn. We would very much appreciate if they were able to engage us in a conversation around that. So it’s something that we really, really hope we can get in touch with governments.
Piko: Do you consider yourself a political person?
Laura: Not really. I do know what is happening in the country politically, but I’m not really that involved in the conversation. We do have the elections coming up. By the time we’re recording this, it will be next week. So in eight days time.
Piko: So we’re right now recording this on August the 1st of 2022. What about the feminism in Kenya? Is there, apart from the cyber and helping other people to learn computer, are there feminist movements?
Laura: Oh, there are. There are. We do have feminist movements and feminist groups, and most of them, they’re very different in terms of structures. We do have a wide variety of feminist movements. We have movements in marginalized communities that have been established to really support women in terms of economic empowerment and education, the girl child. We have movements that are trying to get more girls to finish school because in some communities you would get that some girls would drop out of schools to get married or because the culture dictates that when they reach a certain age, then they’re ready for marriage. So we do have grassroots organizations and feminist movements that support that cause to get more girls to have the opportunity to finish their or attain, you know, degrees or even high school education. And then we have another spectrum where it’s feminist movements within social media. And it’s very, it can get very controversial. I believe that there’s a lot of misinformation or a lot of misunderstanding in terms of what feminism is. So you get a lot of gender wars in Kenya, for example. We have so many cases of femicide where women are killed by the basis of them being women on the basis of them being women, especially by their spouses. And whenever that happens, it’s never about the victim, it’s suddenly become gender wars. It becomes gender wars. And so that’s a whole different area of feminism that I feel a lot of people are misunderstanding, both genders in a way. Sometimes we do not know how to present our grievances. We don’t know how to present our, what we consider solutions to this problem. And so we see a lot of people, a lot of wars going on on social media.
Piko: Thank you. So some last questions about SheHacks. How do you collect new trainers? How can one join your group and also volunteer for work?
Laura: Yeah. So in terms of trainers, what I personally do is I reach out to people randomly on Twitter, on LinkedIn. If I see someone has talked about something in a conference, I would always reach out to them, tell them about SheHacks and ask them to come and train. Also the other members within my leadership team, they do the same. Or when we go to an event in Kenya, you would meet someone or even outside of Kenya, you would meet people and you tell them about SheHacks and ask them to come train. So usually it’s just random, very, very random. Sometimes even you find someone’s talk on YouTube and you reach out to them, you look for their email addresses or their social media and you reach out to them and ask them to train. And we are so lucky because most of the time these people actually agree and they come and train us. So it’s good to have that community around us. In terms of volunteering for SheHacks, it’s open to anyone. If you feel like there’s something you can add to the community, then we definitely welcome anyone and everyone who are interested in meeting our objectives, that is bridging the skill and gender gap. So anyone is welcome to volunteer.
Piko: Does SheHacks have kind of a super group or is SheHacks a subgroup from a larger group?
Laura: Yeah, so we are the original. We started it. It’s a very original group. And because we started it ourselves without the help of anyone else, actually. And so we are not a part of a larger group. We are the larger group.
Piko: Okay, cool! Yeah, so what’s the next bigger thing you’re organizing? Is there already something?
Laura: Yes. So annually we have our biggest event of the year, we call it HackFest, which is a two-day event. Last year we actually did four days all through the month of October, every Thursday. But this year we are going to go back to the physical HackFest. And so it’s a two-day event that brings together information security experts and students and anyone else, companies who want to come and join us for the event. It’s free, again. So we’re trying, right now what we’re working on is getting funding for that event. And so what we do with the event is we never turn down any female speakers because as I mentioned when we started, one of the things that drove us to establish SheHacks was the lack of representation of women in conferences and other public forums. So we never turned down any women speakers. They can come and speak, whether it’s information security, we have people talking about mental health for people in tech. So it’s open to everyone and that’s why it’s a two-day event. The first one we did was in 2019 and we had 23 speakers and we had to slot them all in. So yeah, so that’s the event we’re working towards right now. And it’s going to be in October as usual, but we haven’t decided on the dates yet.
Piko: With never turning down female speakers, did you ever make a bad experience?
Laura: No, no, because one of the things that most, especially women, fear is putting themselves out there speaking at conferences. So sometimes you actually have to tell someone you’re actually good at this, come and speak. It takes a lot of convincing sometimes.
Piko: Yes, we totally have that with the Haecksen also. In some of the internal events, we’re kind of saying, okay, everyone is going to have a five minute talk and kind of that. So everyone has to talk a little bit about it and it’s only then that they are noticing so, oh, I’m having something to say. It’s interesting. And everyone wants to hear about it and it’s like getting a question round of kind of half an hour or something, although they just plan for five minutes because it’s so interesting. So yes, I imagine really having that phenomenon.
Laura: And usually whenever we have two people maybe who want to speak about the same thing or similar concepts, we pair them up and we ask them to work together. And or we have someone who is really, really shy, we would pair them up with someone else. And that way we get to encourage more women to speak and also just to support them in terms of their public speaking, we’re trying to tell them that you can do it. Personally, I am a very, very shy and introverted person. And when I first did my first ever talk, I remember the day, November 12th, 2016, I was really shaking. And I think it was supposed to be a 30 minute talk, but I only did like 10 minutes because I was really scared. I had stage fright. But you know, eventually if you have a supportive community, no one is going to mock you about it. But thankfully I had a very supportive community and they were like, you did good, you know, you’ll do better next time. And this is where I am right now. Right now I speak at conferences and events and I’m better at it because I was given a chance. And that’s why I want to give more women the chance that was given to me.
Piko: Yes, very much. Cool. So I’m coming to the end of my question list. One of the last questions, a funny one, is what is your cyber security advice? What should people do better?
Laura: Okay, I have many, but I would say as long as you are on the internet, then your information is out there. So be careful what you share on the internet, be careful how you use the internet, what cyber security practices you use in terms of your passwords, how easy are they to crack. So watch out for those little things. If you can’t remember your passwords, which we all can’t remember our passwords for 10 plus accounts, use a password manager. And remember, be kind, be kind on the internet. That’s a good cyber security practice. Be kind to people.
Piko: Yes, yes, very much! So my last question is, how can one support you? So is there kind of the possibility to donate or something?
Laura: Yes. And that is something that we’re going to set up. We want to start receiving donations and we are very transparent about how we use the funding. So we’re going to set up a platform where you could support us. But currently, one thing that people can really, really do to support us is come and speak at one of our events, our online events, share your knowledge with us and let us learn something from you.
Piko: And how can one find your online events? We put a link in the show notes.
Laura: Yes. So we do share all our events on our Twitter, @shehacks_ke. And our LinkedIn is shehackske and we’re also on Instagram: @shehackske. So you can find us on all our socials and you’ll be able to see all our events.
Piko: Great, yes! So let’s see if we can push some Haecksen to appear at the events. So do you have some remarks, some questions I should have asked?
Laura: I’m actually very excited that I got to do this podcast because one of the things I love to do is to learn about other communities around the world that are similar to ours. And that’s why I was very excited when I read about Haecksen and what she do. And my question to you is, how would you encourage women-led tech organizations or tech initiatives to keep going?
Piko: I think it’s a lot about looking for your own, kind of managing your own strength, because it’s often like the women are the person who are caring for everything and especially for everyone else. And the moment women groups are getting together, suddenly there are other people who are also caring for you. And that makes women groups often very kind of strong or forceful because suddenly we kind of can unite our forces. But it sometimes also leads to that much excitement leads to kind of giving too much out and wanting to do too much and wanting to change too much. So really looking after how much power do you have and when do you need also kind of a break and a need to care for yourself, not just giving for the community. Because if you’re totally burned out, you can’t give anything to the community. So it’s better to kind of doze that and to not give everything away when you can. I think that’s my most important wish for the groups. And one nice thing for you will be that from now on, you really can watch how the other episodes of this podcast will be coming out. And we are going to talk with people in Southern America. We’re going to talk with people in the USA, also hopefully in France and India. And it’s going to be around the world. And maybe we even can kind of keep in touch and have kind of a feminist international hacker group, club. And yeah, maybe even sometime meet in person somewhere.
Laura: I love that idea.
Piko: Great! So do you have some last remarks?
Laura: Thank you so much for having me. It’s been amazing sharing about my experiences and most importantly, sharing with you about SheHacks Kenya. And I look forward to seeing more of your podcast episodes and more of the work Haecksen does. So thank you for having me.
Piko: Thank you so much, Laura. We will put a lot of information we were talking about in the show notes. So if any one of our listeners wants to know more, they can read the things in the show notes. Thank you again, Laura, and have a great day and goodbye to all the listeners.